EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK:

CONVERSATIONS WITH NEO

Neo Tells Me Why He Can Not Mentor Me

      I got a chance to cool down after I left Neo at the library. I wondered how Neo knew what I had been afraid of? How was it that he knew the fears that up until that night I had not? Sure…I had just recently come to terms about my fear of commitment during that one night with Angela.. however, I had not talked to anyone about that night. Nor did I discuss my new found insight into my personal underpinnings. Yet in one fell swoop… in a seemingly casual conversation Neo had laid my soul open as easily as a fisherman could filet a blue fish. I was embarrassed that I had nearly broken in front of him…which of course was because of my need to be tough and self reliant.

      I was also giving much thought to my past mystical or pseudo-mystical experiences both the good and the bad. I wanted to experience only the good and understandably not the bad. The Cherry Point and the Valley Forge experiences were the most peak… the out of the body flying experience with the guardian in Phoenixville was also up there. In between the ultimate and the hellish experiences were many “cool” or neat non-ordinary incidents. Then there were the experiences that were filled with angst but they were interesting and others that were also interesting but often disturbing in the extreme and always very draining. As I mentioned more than once, two of my experiences were hellish, terrifying beyond belief and more real then I should care to admit.”

      I think most people would agree that the experiences of hell should be avoided like a bad case of herpes or the clap for the obvious reasons. The hellish experience was a double screwing because it most likely was an implication of psychosis.

      “What a combo, I thought, experiencing hell and being a fruitcake for the entire world to witness and not a damn thing you can do about it”

      I felt that if was not due to psychosis then it was infinitely more terrifying that such hells could exist with us vulnerable for the torment. As much as the peak experiences were blissful…a part of me was terrified at the prospect that they also were due to a fit of psychosis.

      My need to be self sufficient and independent found the prospect of insanity more disturbing than what I felt most people would. I guess you could say I had a pathological fear of suffering from pathological cognitive dysfunction.

      The bliss experiences were so over the top fantastic that I could see that it fulfilled every optimistic theologians few of salvation and heaven. They were so intense that I would have sold my soul for the continued experience of them even if I found them to be a sham…a hallucination… as long as the bad ones never happened… real or not. The bad ones were so bad…that if I was told that the bliss ones were real and the others were hallucinations, I would be hard pressed to make the choice to go for the celestial gold if the chance of getting spiritual lead was a chance reality. I think I felt so cowardly I would have opted to not try for another experience to avoid the un-pleasantries of hell.

      I knew originally the experiences were as Neo said, --- a freakish constellation of events with freakish chance of timing added to the mix.

      I was also certain after the various occasions of feeling the bliss, I also recognized how a person in that non-ordinary state could transcend the normal rules and confines of the ordinary; I knew that in the non-ordinary state a person could bend the rules of the normal reality and exploit this condition for their own ends. I sensed or thought I sensed that these bliss experiences were potentially the royal road to salvation and non-exploitive personal power and yet the siren of more sung to me and a part of me was seduced to see what and how I could exploit and move laterally. Only a small part of me was seduced…but I was nevertheless and at a certain level I felt that this need or desire was potentially the royal road to damnation and the occupation of one sort of hell or another.

      With all that I had experienced, I no longer wanted more than an ordinary life, if it meant that I had to chance the bad. Now I craved an ordinary vanilla, white picket fence around a small little house with two point five children and a dog. I craved the ordinary dreams to indulge my self with one woman and engage in the regular fair of unrelenting sex to be repeated with what some may call monotonous regularity.

      I fought to find solace in the mechanisms of rational logical within the school of “if you can not prove it, it does not exist” type of thought. I was determined to figure out what I could prove, and what I could prove were the strategies that would serve me in a positive way…strategies that would best facilitate my success in every endeavor in life. So I mulled over what it was that I could prove. I could prove that exercise and good diet kept me healthier and increased my mental and physical well being.

      I could prove that working hard and being accountable was more effective than being lazy and not being accountable for my actions. I could prove that increasing my education served me more than staying ignorant. I could prove that following the golden rule and the Ten Commandments served me better than violating them.

I could prove that networking with like minded people that you could trust towards common goals was more effective than to hang out with people that would try to hamstring you or pull you down from their apathy. I could prove that being thrifty with your money and investing it wisely was more effective in achieving a better life than squandering your income.

      I looked around and observed people who were agnostic or atheistic and never had a mystical experience and proved to be high functioning, with well balanced happy lives. I looked around and observed people who were confirmed die-hard religious people that “felt” the love of God and Jesus and claimed a daily connection with their creator…claimed mystical experiences and yet many of them proved to be low functioning, un-balanced miserable and generally unhappy lives. I observed that some of these religious people may have even slavishly and fearfully obeyed the Ten Commandments were also often unhappy and low functioning.

      I observed the proofs that regardless of the prospect of a God or our consciousness surviving death that certain life strategies bore good fruit and bad strategies bore bad fruit. This was to become my “Holy Grail”. The next few days…Neo had not shown up at the gym. I thought that perhaps I had offended him or perhaps he now felt uneasy about seeing the nerve he had struck in my fragile ego.

      A week went by and finally, I went late at night to the library and I knocked at the door. I kept knocking and no answer. I thought that he was avoiding me, because his truck was in the parking lot and he knew my knock. I almost made it to my motorcycle to leave when Neo opened the door and yell at me his usual g’days.

      I said, “I knocked for quite awhile and since you didn’t answer. I thought that perhaps you didn’t feel like company.

      Neo reaches out and gives my shoulder an affectionate squeeze.

      He said, “Sorry I couldn’t git ta ya sooner mate, but I was busy in the dunny sitting on the porcelain throne.” “I heard ya knocking but that damn turtle head would not make up its mind…it would not git out right away, nor would the bloody bugger git back in.”

      I said, “Turtle head?”

      Neo said, “Sorry mate, I guess fer you “Yanks” that’s not very clear.” “I meant I was stuck pinching a loaf…taking a dump…unloading a steamer.”

      The self consciousness that I felt evaporated as I fell helplessly into a convulsing fit of laughter. Neo could be so damn irreverent and funny!

      When I managed to regain my composure I looked at Neo and I started to feel self consciousness again and I started to stumble over my words as I said, “I haven’t seen you at the gym for a few days. I thought maybe… I thought maybe I offended you.”

      Neo said, “I didn’t come-bye because I knew our talk knock ya a bit off balance… I knew ya needed ta not see me for awhile.”

      I shift from one foot to the other and I said, “I’m sorry I acted so childish….” Neo cut me off and said in a unerring New York wise-guy accent, “Fo git about it!”

      He said, “Come on in…I was going to make myself some tea.”

      He looked at me and said, “Coffee or tea?”

      I said, “I think I’ll have tea tonight.”

      Neo said, “Ya got it mate!”

      Once the tea was made we sat at the table in the break room. We were both silent for a long time. I think Neo was patiently waiting for me to open up. He waited…and after about ten minutes of sipping on the tea and contemplating what I would unload.

      Finally I said, “Sorry, I got upset…it’s just that no one has ever seen me like that before.”

      Neo said, “Vinny, I could see it plainly because I had suffered the same fears until I was in my thirties.”

“I feared intimacy because like you I did not feel that I was financially set to care for a woman or family if the worst things in life were to happen.”

      Neo and I sipped our tea in silence for another five minutes.

      Neo spoke first and said, “I had trouble committing because I often fretted on thoughts of what I would do if the woman I had a relationship with flaked out, or proved unreliable.”

      I said, “But you’re one of the most capable self-sufficient people that I know.”

      Neo smiled and said, “I manage ta git by.” “My father went on a drunken walkabout for several years while we were really young.”

      I said, “You mean he deserted you and your family.”

      Neo said, “Yes, and I was lucky, because just like you…we knew our mother loved us and she sacrificed much for us.”

      Neo mulled over his tea and his eyes got that faraway look of a man reliving his past. More silence for minutes on end.

      Neo spoke up as he stood up to pour himself more tea, “The fact that our mother demonstrated her love for us and that she worked the equivalent of two full time jobs to support us filled us with mixed feelings.”

“My siblings and I felt loved and our mother instilled with us that we were worthy…yet the fact that she had to work long hard hours…sun up ta sun down…filled us with terrible guilt and a sense of helplessness to know that we could not be much comfort for our mother…we could not contribute that much to ease her burden.”

      I said, “I could swear that you are describing me and my family’s life.” “My father did not exactly go on a several year drunk…but my mother divorced him because while they were married he was rarely interactive with us.” “My father more or less deserted us after he and my mother separated.” “My father’s side of the family did not interact with us after the split up.” “I suppose it was because they felt ill at ease and did not want to get in the middle of the mess.”

      Neo said, “That is where yer inability to fully trust people originates.”

      I said, “Yes and because many of the people on my mother’s side of the family were deceitful or disinterested.”

      Neo said, “My father’s family did not live in Australia…he was an immigrant.” “But many of his mates acted like our uncles before my dad left.”

      I said, “And after he left?”

      Neo said, “They bailed out…they did have their own lives to contend with.” “I could understand that, but the men I despised were the ones who tried to shag my mother after my dad left and when she would have no part of it….they showed their true ugly colors.” “At that age it was hard fer us ta see my mother treated with prejudice.” “Back then people of Aboriginal descent were treated by the Anglos the same way yer Native Americans were treated at worst and how yer African Americans were treated at best.”

      Neo said, “I had it better than you, because my brothers and I went to live with my mother’s tribe.” “The people of my mother’s tribe cared and could count on each other….yet the desertion of my father and his friends scarred me and my siblings for a long time.” “The Aboriginal people that do not live on the reservations or in towns are the most self sufficient people on the planet…they have to be to survive; but because I had issues with trust and having to depend on other people I strove to be even more self sufficient than the people in my mother’s tribe.” That is why I can see those similarities in both of us.” “That is why I can plainly see your defense mechanisms.” 

      I said, “I admit that I have come to some of those conclusions just recently.” “I don’t want to get involved in a serious relationship until I get am set financially.” “Let’s face it Neo…my life is not going smooth.” “I am going in the hole every month, my work options are uncertain, and my educational options also uncertain.”

      “I don’t want to take the chance of starting a family and then have the woman bail out on me or get into a situation of where I could not provide for my family.” “I must become rich before I go that deep.” “That is why I get together with women who also want to have sex with no strings attached.” “I have to attend to my sexual drives”

      Neo said, “How ya conduct yer sex life is a subject best left for another discussion.” “You can see why ya don’t expect much from yer friends and relatives?”

      I said, “I expect a lot from them.”

      Neo said, “No, you put a lot of trust into them…but you don’t demand much from them.” “You tell yerself the story that everyone has unlimited potential and they will do the right things because the right things are also the smart things.” “You figure since you can improve and have improved…everyone would do the smart thing.” “You don’t want to examine that premise too closely, because it is too painful fer ya.”

      I said, “What you said makes me sound pretty pathetic.”

      Neo said, “I was the same way, and for years the way my siblings and I lived our lives was disastrous.”

      I said, “Disastrous in what way?”

      Neo said, “I could not commit myself to a single relationship fer years, I was prone to violence and recklessness, and I drank heavily until my thirties and committed more sins than I care to talk about.” “My siblings suffered more.” “They drank heavily and they were also prone to violence.” My one brother killed the son of a rich politician in a bar fight over a working girl.”

      I said, “What happened to your brother?”

      Neo said, “He spent many years in prison doing hard time.” “He finally got out on parole and buried his misery in whores and the bottle, eventually he drake himself to death.” “His last seconds of life spent in a squalid whorehouse.” 

      I said, “I can’t imagine you being violent or chasing whores…or even drinking.” “How did you manage to live a different life than your brothers?”

      Neo said, “Shortly after I became a man according to the tradition of my tribe, my mother died, so I went a walkabout around the world.” “I was not satisfied to live the life that my Grandfather and my Uncles lived….even they told me their style of life was numbered.” “I was grateful for the level of self sufficiency they had instilled in me and I was grateful for all of the mysteries that they had showed me.” “A few of those mysteries you and I have talked about.” “I decided to become more self sufficient than the people of my mother’s tribe.” “I wanted to go anywhere and thrive, so I tried to bury my fears and mistrust in school, books, various activities and years of wandering the globe.” “Over the years I tried to redirect my violent impulses by involving myself in organizations that would allow me to indulge my misguided need to be a warrior.”

      I said, “Warrior?” “Were you in the military?”

      Neo said, “Yes…don’t you remember me telling you that one day at the gym that I had served two tours?”       

He gave me a perplexed look & said, “You know the day we all had that big discussion at the gym.” “You know the day you christened me with my name?”

      Feeling stupid I quickly answered, “Yes…yes, I’m sorry, it slipped my mind.”   

      Neo said, “There are parts of my life that I do not wish to go into detail.” “They have nothing to do with what I am now or where I am going in life.”

      “There is nothing in some parts of my past that would benefit you to know.” Neo’s eyes clouded back to a distant past and he said, “Let’s just say I have made many wrong choices… I have been involved in terrible things and leave it at that.”

      Neo shook his head as if to clear the cobwebs of the past from his mind and then he got up quickly to get himself another cup of tea. He sat down and seemed to be reflecting on secret thoughts.

      He looked up and shrugged and said, “Hey, the most important thing is how we handle what’s thrown at us.” “Life is a mixture of both good and bad events…it is up to us to extract as much joy as we can.”

      I said, “How is your other brother?” “Is he still alive?”

      Neo said, “Yeah, but his life has been much different than mine.” “If ya met him…you would not even recognize him as my brother much less an identical triplet.” “My brothers and I were handed the same hands in the card game of life…we played the game differently.” “Each of us left the table with different results.”

      Neo said, “I think you and I have chewed over our past and present flaws.” “Despite yer fears…you are still optimistic about life and the possibilities life offers you.” “You genuinely care about people and you like yourself without being arrogant.” “You realize that life is about growth and you are able to acknowledge that you need to improve and you look for ways to achieve improvement.” “You also want everyone to prosper.” “Some people would say that you are too Pollyannaish.” 

      We sat there enjoying our tea and a pause of silence. Neo gets up and goes to the fridge. He pulls out a dish of food.

      He said, ‘I got ta eat.” “Do ya want some?”

      I said, “Sure, what is it?”

      Neo said, “I made some quiche’.”

      I laughed and said, “Quiche’?”

      Neo said, “Yeah but ya know only real men make quiche.’”

      He heated up the quiche’ and then I enjoyed the best quiche’ I had ever eaten. It would be years before another person would make quiche’ as good as or better than the fare’ that Neo made that night. Clearing the air between Neo and me, along with the meal made me feel comfortable to pursue the line of discussion that he and I had been on a few nights prior.

      As I was greedily chewing on a mouthful of quiche’ & between mouthfuls of food I spoke up, “I been doing a lot of thinking about the conversation we had the other night.”

      Neo just looked at me as he shoveled the food into his mouth.

      I said, “I don’t want to waste my time thinking about experiences that I cannot prove.” “I don’t want to waste anymore time thinking about afterlife, fairies, dwarfs, energy beings or any such thing that cannot be proven.”

      I looked over at Neo to see how he was taking my new ideology.

      Neo just looked at me with interest as he continued to shovel food into the quiche’ hole of his face.”

      I said, “I am going to live with the premise that no part of my consciousness will survive after I die.”

      “I think that the only thing that will survive after my death is the memory that other people will have of me or the things that I have created or damaged.” “I will assume that a better life does not exist elsewhere, but instead our life now…our consciousness now is accidental.” “I think that since our existence is an accident and what we call consciousness is even more of an accident; that makes our lives and our ability to think and perceive more of a gift than most of us realize and more precious than we can imagine.” “I think this makes our responsibility to ourselves and each other to be more profound, more imperative.”

      I continued to preach practicality as I say, “I think that we should focus on the bliss and the joy and the possibilities that this short life can offer us instead of wasting our time on an after life or other realities that we cannot even prove exist.”

      I was expecting Neo to protest my decision, especially since he had invested so much in our conversations and especially since he believed in such things. I knew that if it was Larry, Big Mike, Harry or many of my other friends they would protest loudly and long for not agreeing to give their beliefs premier status.

      Instead Neo just smiled and shrugged.

      I was befuddled by his easy acceptance or disregard for my stance. I said, “You aren’t going to disagree with me?”

      Neo said, “I think that if everyone decided to live their lives based on that philosophy with the gusto ya described, they would not have ta worry about possible after lives the way most people do now.” “I think what yer talking about is what God had intended us to live.”

      I said, “Wait, you can’t use what I dismiss to be untrue, unproven to shore up my argument to live right without the promise of a god or an after life.”

      Neo’s voice took on the tone of a petulant child and he said, “Can to.”

      I said, “Can not.”

      He said, “Can to.” Then I caught on that he was screwing with me and I laughed.

      Neo said, “Vinny, you are right on in that people should be focusing on living the way ya just described without the usual “spiritual hedging their bets” bullcrap strategy to foster their fears, their laziness, and their lack of right living.” “It is my belief that people…and thereby the world would be better off if they assumed that this life is it…none before…none to come after this one.” “The other side of the razors edge…once people life like this…they would be better off still if they realized that their may be an after life, be it blissful or hellish…because of a judgment and reckoning by a supreme being or the reckoning of return for the effort ya put out.” “This also would make people realize that they should not squander the gift of this life.”

      I said, “I don’t want to think about what I cannot prove anymore.”

      Neo laughed generously and then he said, “Then you would not think about very many things.”

     Hearing Neo's last assertion stunned me into silence. I just could not see what he had just said as being possible.

     After the initial shock I managed to once again speak what was now on my mind.

      I said, “What do you mean by that?”

      Neo said, “The majority of things that most of us believe in can not be proved.”

      I wanted to believe that I could rely on volumes of truth from any discipline that would offer such security.”      

      I said, “What about science?”

      Neo said, “Nope…not even science will give ya the firm footing yer craving.” “There are very few hard and fast laws in science and for years scientists could not prove these laws and they were just theories.” “Theories are ideas that cannot be proven.”

      I said, “Yeah but theories have a lot of evidence that most sensible people would agree with after seeing the evidence.”

      He said, “Yes, but before that many of those theories were thought of by people who had hunches and intuited the truth.” “Even in mathematics there are unproven theorems.”

      I said, “Math is the most certain with its proofs and the other things that are still theories have been repeated so often that only a fool would disagree.”

      Neo quipped, “I agree.” “But as I said, lots of things can not be proven.” “However, I see nothing wrong with pursuing ideals that bring you pleasure and help ya to advance yer goals.”

      I said, “You mentioned that you entertain seriously the likelihood of other realities and other non-human or non-ordinary entities.”

      Neo said, “Yes.”

      I said, “You say that you cannot prove what you are entertaining.”

      Neo said, “That’s right, I can not prove without a shadow of a doubt to most hard line scientists.”

      I said, “What sort of evidence do you offer or rely on to keep you pursuing your beliefs.”

      Neo said, “That is a very good question.” “I offer the evidence that remarkable things happen with frequent enough regularity which should cause even an unbiased scientist to pause.”

      I said, “What remarkable things could you offer?”

      Neo said, “You have heard of psychic phenomena correct?”

      I said, “Who hasn’t”

      Neo said, “There are various types of phenomena.” “There is precognition, telepathy, clairvoyance, psycho-kinesis, telekinesis, medium-ship, extra-sensory perception. “

      I said, “Alleged phenomena.”

      Neo said, “Yes, alleged.” “I am sure that it would be no surprise to you that the majority of the claims that are brought forth are false.”

      I said, “You’re right, I am not surprised.”

      Neo said, “And rightly so.” “In fact it should not be a surprise that 99.99% of the claims of psychic phenomena are definitely and unquestionably wrong.” They are wrong because the claims are outright lies, misinterpretations, over active imaginations, illusions, but .01% is not found to be anything that scientists can put a finger on.”

      Neo said, “Let’s speculate that only .01% of those phenomena that can’t be explained away as possible incidents of extra-sensory perception.”

      I grudgingly said, “Okay let’s say that it is…can you prove it?”

      Neo said, “Let me continue to ask you questions to see if we can get to the bottom of this.”

      I thought, “Oh shit…here he goes with the Socratic method again.”

      I said, “Okay.”

      Neo said, “Can you see in the ultra-violet light or ultra-red light?”

      I said, “No.”

      Neo leaned towards me & asked, “Can you hear in the ultrasound or infrasound range?”

      I said, “No.”

      Neo said, “Some animals can see in those ranges, to us that would seem like extra-sensory perception and it is at least as far as we are concerned.” “Sharks can smell a drop of blood in an Olympic size pool and they can sense the electrical fields of other animals.” “Besides sharks, eels can detect their prey by sensing electrical fields of the animals around them.” “Electric eels can generate high powered electrical currents to stun or kill their intended prey.” “Porpoises, bats, dolphins and whales use ultrasound sonar that they project from an organ in their head and with this they can communicate with each other, navigate and sometimes knock intended prey senseless.”

      “In fact dolphins can get a three dimensional read on the configuration of your body from the outside all the way down to the center of yer body…just like the ultrasound that the doctor examines his patient with.” “Elephants can hear extremely low sounds…infra-sounds and they can also communicate using infra-sounds.”

      I said, “I love the lecture on the enhanced senses of animals…really I do, but what does that have to do with extra-sensory phenomena?”

      Neo said, “Human beings on average can only perceive 1/100,000,000,000 of the electro-magnetic spectrum.” Animals can perceive more of the electro-magnetic spectrum and they take advantage of their enhanced perceptions.” ”As I pointed out…some of these animals are actually able to produce frequencies in the electro-magnetic spectrum for use of communication, navigation and actual weapons for hunting and killing.”

      Neo said, “The only reason why most people do not regard these enhanced perceptions as extra-perception in the manner that I am implying is because we now have tools and methods to understand what is going on.” “Before we had these tools and methods…we were inclined to think that perhaps magic was involved.”

      I said, “Those are animals that you are talking about.”

      Neo said, “Yes, and besides the animals…some humans exhibit perceptual abilities far beyond most humans…and of course without modern science it would be thought that their gifts was due to psi phenomena.” “The point is perhaps it is possible that sometimes the human brain and body is able to sense consciously or unconsciously electro-magnetic fields that transmit signals from other people, animals, or future events and that at times some peoples brains have the ability to take this type of information and make extrapolations.”

      I said, “But where is the proof?”

      Neo said, ‘Yer saying that it is important to have proof every time to make a decision on everything?”

      Not wanting to fall into one of Neo’s traps I decided not to totally commit myself while answering the question.

      I said, “I don’t know about proof every time to make a decision, but I think it would be a good idea to have proof as often as you can.”

      Neo said, ‘Very good, you’re covering all of yer bases.” “Have ya ever felt that someone was staring at you only to find that someone was?”

      I said, “Yes, I have.”

      He said, “Have you ever had the phone rings and out of the blue you have a flash of a thought and you know that it is a friend or a relative that you have not seen in years…and often had not thought of in years, and when you pick up the phone it turns out to be that person.”

      I said, “Yes that has happen more than a few times.”

      Neo said, “Have you ever had a dream of person that you do not know, or an incident that has not happened and not only has that incident not happened but at the time of the dream the incident seems to fantastic to even consider; But within days, weeks, or even months you end up meeting the person in yer dream or the fantastic incident does happen?” Listening to Neo I was feeling apprehensive and also excited by the picture I thought I saw him painting.”

      I said, “Yes, I have had those things happen.”

      Neo said, “Have you ever seen someone’s pet know when that person was calling on the phone or knew when their master was coming home?”

      I said, “I have never seen that but I have heard that people make those claims.”

      Neo said, “Have you ever been asked a question about anything that you could not have possibly know…and yet you know the answer?”

      I said, “Yes that has happened.”

      Neo said, “Have you ever lost an article or helped someone to find a lost article and somehow just know where the article was when there was no possible way you could have known?”

      I said, “I want to say that I think that has happened to me, but I can’t recall a specific incident; but I have heard of other people making this claim.”

      Neo said, “How do you account fer all of those things happening?”

      I struggled to be as scientific as possible. I said, “Lots of reasons why they happened, such as coincidence, misinterpretations of what they thought was or did happen.” “The staring is probably coincidence.” “Your examples of the animals could be pheromones that the animals sensed or body language of the people they were near.” “The phone calls of people that have not been seen or heard from or thought of for years could be coincidence or the brain simply made the hunch from calculating probabilities by operating at a subconscious level like a super computer.” “Dreams of people or incidents that you are about to meet or incidents that we do experience could also be coincidence or the brain calculating probabilities.” “Finding lost articles is likely to be due to coincidence or the brain calculating probabilities”

      Neo said, “You forgot the phenomena of knowing answers to things that you could not possibly know.”

      I said, “Also due to coincidence or the brain calculating probabilities.”

      Neo put his big hands behind his head and leaned back into his chair for a generous stretch. He looked at me with amusement and laughed. He said, “I feel like I am talking to Larry or Harry.” Neo said, “So I see that you are going to rely on the ole’ side-stepping coincidence and the brain calculating probabilities argument huh?”

      I said, “I am not side-stepping.”

      Neo said, “Do you remember the day at the gym when Harry was showing off his “massive” calculating abilities?”

      I laughed getting a kick out of the memory and I said, “You mean the day that Harry was asking people if they could calculate the square roots of extraordinarily high numbers…or I should say the day Harry was performing a cheap parlor trick of remembering the square root of certain numbers?’

      Neo also laughed and said, “I have to admit that bloke Harry does have fairly high math skills and he does have a very good memory…but he is a bit of a dag ta think anyone at the gym was so stupid ta not see his trick.” (Dag is a term for dung encrusted in the wool on the ass end of a sheep).

      Neo said, “Remember when he put every one of ya on the spot and challenged ya all ta see if you could calculate the square root of a five digit number?”

      I laughed hard at the memory of my guessing out of the blue the square root for a ridiculously long number.

      I said, “I can’t for the life of me remember what the number was…but the look on his face was priceless when I quickly and unerringly blurted out the number.”

      Neo said, “I remember exactly what the number was.” “Harry asked everyone in the gym if they could calculate in their heads the square root of 88,209 and within the snap of a finger you blurted out the number 297, which is the correct answer.”

      I shook my head in amazement that Neo’s memory was so exacting on a number that I could not remember much less the correct answer.”

      I said, “I don’t know how I guessed it…I didn’t know how calculate for the square root of anything past 1,000 even by long hand.”

      Neo said, “That’s part of my point.” “Tell me, how did you guess the answer?”

      I said, “I saw the picture of the number instantly after he asked the question and without thinking it was as if I knew.”

      Neo said, “A calculation at that speed would have been amazing if you knew the procedure to find the square roots of large multi-digit numbers.” “That would have been impressive if Harry came up with the answer that fast even though he knows the procedures.” “The question is how did you come up with the correct number?” “Are ya going ta tell me that yer brain calculated the answer when you had never learned the proper mathematical procedures and would be unable to do the work by long hand?”

      I said, “I must admit…that has me stumped.”

      Neo said, “The phenomena of sensing when someone is staring at you has also been studied and quantified by my good mate Dr. Rupert Sheldrake. I remembered that name as one of many of the many piles of letters that Neo had left out with his stuff at the gym.

      If I remembered correctly it was to some guy somewhere in the United Kingdom.

      Not wanting Neo to know that I had sifted through his letters because of my curiosity to see to whom and where he corresponded with, so I tried to sound noncommittal and just said, “Okay.”

      Neo smiled and said, “Good ole’ Rup is a bloody brilliant biologist in England.”

“He believes that all living things have or are made up of organizational fields of energy and he believes that animals and people sometimes are able to sense things or communicate in non-traditional ways.”

      I said, “So that is where you get that organizational fields of energy hocus pocus.”

      Neo said, “Actually Rup’s scientific credentials have given credibility that my Grandfather, my Uncle and what me and my people have accepted and experienced fer eons.” “Shamans have often noted these energy fields and their aim is to utilize those energy fields.”

      I said, “How does this all relate to being stared at?”

      Neo said, “Me bud Rupert is a clever bloke.” “He was actually the first person to create an experiment on the sensation of being stared at. “Various times Rupert had taken groups of people…small groups or large groups and then he has divided the number of people into two groups.” “One group are the people who are the targets to be stared at…the other group of people are assigned to do the staring.” “The people that are assigned to do the staring have to make the decision to stare or not to stare at the person who his standing or sitting in front of them with their back turned.” “They have ta make the decision based on a coin toss…heads they stare and tails they do not.” “After the coin toss they make a clicking sound with a clicker to let the person in front of them to know that they made their decision and were either staring at the back or their head or looking away.” “It was up to the person who was sitting in front ta guess or try to “feel” if they were being stared at or not.”

      I whistled long and loud at the clever yet simple experiment that Neo’s friend had devised. I said, “Were the results of the guess roughly fifty-fifty?”

      Neo said, “No…the people being stared out were way above the fifty fifty flip.” “During the times the subjects were not being stared at, they scored much better that fifty-fifty, but during the times that they were being stared at, the subjects scored much higher.”

      This piece of information rocked me back on my heels because I felt I could see the implication and I said, as much to Neo.

       Neo said, “It gits better…When Rupert had groups of people assigned to stare or look away in unison to a subject…the subjects scored even higher that the ones that were stared at by only one person, especially when they were being stared at.” “In fact the more people doing the staring the higher the odds went up that the subject being stared at would “feel” it.”

      I said, “As you know my math skills are pretty piss poor, but it seems to me that mathematicians specializing in statistics should examine Dr. Sheldrake’s findings.”

      Neo said, “Rupert made available his findings to an advance statistical formulas and it was found that the number of times that the subjects were correct was due to pure chance was something like a billion and something to one.”

      I was stunned by this piece of information.

      I said, “That should get a lot of scientists to stand up on their hind legs.” “So Dr. Sheldrake was able to prove that ESP exists?”

      Neo said, “It did indeed get scientists to stand up and take notice…but not entirely in a good way.” “Some newer freerer thinking people in the scientific community are excited by Rupert’s work.” “The old guards are resistant and in fact some of these anal blokes have tried to publicly ridicule Rupert.”

    I said, “Does Dr. Sheldrake have his ideas and experiments outlined?”

      Neo said, “He’s has a remarkable book called “A New Science of Life: The Hypothesis of Formative Causation.” “The book just came out last year and true to his generous nature good ole’ Rup sent me a copy of the books first release.”

      I said, “Formative causation sounds pretty complex and out of my league to understand.”

      Neo said, “Naw…Rupert has written it in such a way as to be able to explain it to the simplest of lay people...that’s part of his gift fer teaching.” “I’d lend ya my copy but it is with another mate of mine and they live a good distance away from here.”

      Neo decided that we could look to see if the book was in the library we were standing. It wasn’t but Neo assured me that he would see that the library would order the book.

      I said, “You said that you and your people have been aware of such fields?”

      Neo said, “Yes…and the feeling of being stared at come from our more primitive part of our brains.” “Animals can often tell if they are being stared at….even if you are down wind from them.”

      I thought, “Shit!”

      He saw were I would go before I could blurt out about animals smelling the person staring at them.

Neo could be so damn quick in the gray matter department.

      I said, “How do you think that this can occur?”

      Neo said, “It is a survival mechanism and organizational energy fields, internal senses or what have you can sense and interpret on a non-intellectual level the organizational energy fields of the organism that is staring at them.” “This seems particularly true if the animal is a predator with bad or hungry intentions towards the animal it is looking at.” “In fact…I was taught from my mother’s people that when ya were hunting ya should try not to look directly at an animal that ya were stalking, otherwise the animals had a much greater chance of sensing you and escaping.”

      Neo smiled and said, ‘Down wind or not.” “Another thing I was taught by my Grandfather was that when ya are stalking an animal…it is best to hide, quiet, or dissolve yer intentions ta kill the animal.” “Hunters that could hide their intentions were a lot more successful in bring down the game.”

      I quipped, “So a combination of hiding your attention and intentions was what you used.”

      Neo said, “Exactly!” “They taught us that in the Navy Seals also.”

      Very abruptly he snapped his mouth shut much the way a person does when they realize they blurted out something best left secret. Neo got a look of self-disgust on his face and he quickly started in on another line of thought regarding the phenomena of psi abilities. This hurried push to talk about the phone phenomena seemed to have an edge of desperation about it…which I must say was very unlike Neo.

      Neo loudly and quickly said, “You acknowledged the phenomena of pet owners and phone calls.”

      I felt pulled along in the direction that Neo was pushing the conversation. I said, “Yeah…what do you make of that?”

      Neo now seemed more himself as he said, “There has been many experiments on the unspoken or telepathic communication between animals and their owners.” “This is not to say that the animals are sending their master’s thoughts in human language…it is the emotions and intentions that are communicated between an animal and it’s owner.” “There are countless accounts and experiments that people have engaged in that shows there is something that the old guard scientists don’t want to consider about psi phenomena.” “Vinny…if you went to one of these scientific dinosaurs and asked them what the odds would be for a person of limited mathematical ability to coincidently guess the square root of 88,209 to be 297, they would snort and laugh and tell you that their was a greater chance of winning the lottery or being struck by lightening.” “Yet if they saw what you the day Harry asked you the 88,209 dollar question…they would cry out that it was pure coincidence.” “They would try to ride two horses…do ya see what I mean?”

      I said, “I think I do.” “It seems that there are two camps and both camps seem to be invested in what they what to believe depending on their desires or fears, despite any evidence presenting to either camp.”

“The people in both camps will go to extremes to deny any other options using any means necessary fair or unfair.” “Most of the people in those camps are a lot like Harry to a greater or lesser degree.”

      Neo said, “Yes, most people will refuse to entertain beliefs or concepts regardless of the evidence presented to them…and other people will entertain beliefs and concepts with almost no evidence to support their pet ideas.”

      I said, “Isn’t that just as dangerous and limiting?”

      Neo said, “It can be dangerous…and it can be as limiting…but not always.”

      I said, ‘What does Dr. Sheldrake studies show? Is he able to prove psi phenomena?”

      Neo said, “I think that Rupert has set the stage to give people the permission to entertain useful or potentially useful concepts and beliefs and he has encouraged people to create experiments to gather evidence themselves.” “Rupert makes science fun for everyone.”

      Neo said, “I want to git back to yer statement that ya no longer want to think of thing that ya cannot prove.”

      I said, “Okay.”

      Neo said, “Most things that we belief can not be proved in the way that most scientist would like to see.”

      “It is possible that many things will always remain out of the grasp of verifiable proofs.” “This is something that ya have to come to grips with.” “I also want ta know…did ya give up yer belief that your faith or belief that ya can attain levels of strength that has been thought of as being impossible.” “Do ya know longer believe in the perception of energy fields while you are working out, or that it is not useful to experience mystical events to push yer potential fer physical or mental performance?”

      I said, “Okay…maybe I had freaked out a bit to deny other worldly possibilities?’

“I do not want to give up my pet beliefs that have seemed to serve me well.”

      Neo said, “You have used yer beliefs to fuel yer gains in performance and ya continue ta operate this way.” “You do this not only when you do not have any evidence outside yer reality to support yer belief…but you even continue to operate with yer beliefs despite the arguments and anecdotal evidence provided to you.” “Why do you think ya operate that way?”

      I shrugged and felt more that a little chagrin.

      I said, “I don’t know…I guess you could say that I sometimes have faith in faith.”

      Neo said, “I like it…faith in faith.” “Be careful not to fall into self-deception…that can be disastrous.”

      I said, “I think that sometimes people benefit and even have an advantage in believing in things that they can’t prove.” “I believe that when I use my passions and emotions to fuel my belief in something despite a lack of evidence.”

      I said, “I seem to do better operating this way then some of my intellectually brighter friends who tend to calculate their every move.”

      Neo said, “Yeah…that’s call paralysis by over analysis.”

      I chuckled and said, “I never heard that before…I like it.”

      Neo said, “Be careful of letting your emotions carry you away.” “A person or group that lets their emotions or passions carry them away often operate irrationally.” “The early Greeks knew that people…the world would be a much better place if reason was to replace base emotions and superstitions.”

      I said, “I am not suggesting that I believe in giving up rational thought, and I recognize that we all have tendencies towards base or ugly emotions, but as long as I understand that I can be careful as I use intense passion to fuel the efforts I put into my faith.” “That is what I do with weight training…that is why I got to world class level.”

      Neo said, “For awhile when I was much younger, I worked at what ya Yanks call mental hospitals; I had much opportunity to see what happens to people that become consumed by emotions.”

      I said, “What were you doing working at a mental hospital?”

      Neo said, “I was doing work and research with a colleague and one of me mentors by the name of Dr. Phillip Zimbardo, he and I became really good mates.” “Perhaps ya heard of him since you are majoring in psych.”

      I said, “I don’t recall the name.”

      Neo grunted his surprise and said, “Hmm, that’s kind of surprising…he is a real famous bloke in the field of psychology.”

      I said, “I know of William James, Carl Jung, Alfred Alder, Carl Rogers, Freud, lots of others.”

      Because I was unable to recognize Neo’s friend’s name I became a little touchy and resentful that anyone would think that I was a lackadaisical student.

      I said, “What is he noted for?”

      Neo said, “He devised a clever experiment to see how fast or deep that mentally healthy people with seemingly good values can fall into evil ways.”

      I looked at Neo and shrug my ignorance.

      Neo said, “He created a mock prison in the basement of Stanford…”

      I screamed out before he could finish what he was saying, “Aghh! As I slapped my hand on my forehead, “That guy!” “He did the Stanford prison guard – prisoner study.” “Now I remember his name…shit…he’s like the current rock star of psychology.” “How did you manage to work with him?”

      Neo said, “Remember I said, that I traveled the world and buried my self in books and school?”

      I said, “Oh yeah right.”        

      Neo said with a mysterious smile, “I studied psychology, sociology, anthropology, extensively….among other things.”

      I said, “Shit…is there anything that you haven’t done?”

      Neo said, ‘Lots of stuff mate…but I expect to live a long time, and regardless it’s been fun.

      I said, “What’s Dr. Zimbardo like?”

      Neo said, “My Mate Zim is grouse….he’s dinkum.” “When I first met him he was poor, he was a real battler.”

      “Ole’ Zim had a knack fer the dramatic also…he could have been an actor on the big screen or better still the theater.” “He’s got real charisma.”

      I said, “So what sort of stuff did you learn while working at the mental hospital?”

      Neo said, “I learned lots of things, but what is germane to our discussion now is that many of the people that were in the hospital suffered because they allowed themselves to be carried away by their passions and emotions.”

      Neo sighed in sympathy, “Lots of those poor bloody beggars were consumed by painful emotions such as depression, anger, various fears and sadness…almost all senseless.”

      Neo sighed in remembrance and his emerald eyes faded off into the past and he said in a low voice, “A lot of them buggers were crippled by weird beliefs and delusions of grandeur.”

      I said, “It could be argued that my belief or faith that I can achieve certain levels of performance and that by achieving that level of performance triggering what I think are mystical experiences are nothing but grandiose or bizarre.” “It could be argued that your beliefs and lifestyle is also screwed up.’

      Neo said, “Yes some people could argue that, and that is why you and I have to constantly scrutinize and put our beliefs to the test.” “That’s what being a scientist is all about.”

      “No, the type of grandiose and bizarre behavior I am talking about is when your beliefs get in the way of sound relationships or if they get in the way of functioning in all of the healthy ways that is necessary to survive and to grow.”

      Neo looked as if he was pondering something bigger and they he said, “An interesting group of people that we studied are those who are obsessive compulsive personalities…and I do not mean the ones that wash their hands all day long, or compulsively count and check things.” “No, the type of obsessive compulsive people that I speak of suffers from a type dysfunction of what I call hyper-rationality.”

      I said, “Hell I wish I was more rational….that sounds more like a gift instead of a curse.” “I don’t follow you.”

      Neo said, “These are people who cannot understand other people’s emotional workings, or outburst.”

“They operate as the logic and rational police who always compulsively doing the right thing.” “They resent others that fail to do their duty.”

      I said, “Okay…so they aren’t very empathetic, but they do their duty, -- what’s wrong with that?”

      Neo sighed and said, “Their duty may be a blind dogmatic belief…it may not actually serve them or the people they relate to, but since it is a rule that society has not thrown out they will obsessively and compulsively follow it.” “These people also let the people around them to beware if they don’t follow those rules also.” “These people cannot understand feelings of hatred, revenge, or true compassion, generosity, or love….and they only give favors according to rules of this for that …”quid pro quo” type of trading.”

      Neo said, “Even though they cannot understand other people’s feelings of hatred…they themselves are often subject to resentment, anger, and even rage.”

      I said, “While I hate the thought of letting emotions spilling out all over the place…I think that people who lack passion and faith suffer from severe disadvantages.

      Neo said, “Yes, and that is a major point that I would try to emphasis to humans if I could…just think of the people who constantly wait for optimal outcomes or proofs before action as compared to people that move forward towards their dreams or make decisions with the confidence of their convictions. “ 

      I said, “Right on!” “I have read that many of the captains of industry and many or our most productive scientists have done great things, created new innovations because they just go forward regardless of what other people say or believe contrary to the beliefs of these negative people.”

      Neo said, “That is because a lot of people are afraid of failure and ridicule…and they do realize that most people who strive will fail many times along the way before they succeed.”

      Neo said, “So getting back to your earlier assertion that you want to only think about things or believe things that you can prove.”

      I said, ‘Well aside from my fantasies that seem to serve me, I would prefer to see what science and mathematics has to say on any given subject.”

      Neo laughed and his eyes shone with amusement and he said, “Then I think ya are ready fer a merry ride.” “Scientific methods rely on the deliberate and very intense close scrutiny and the critical analysis of other scientists.”

      “Anytime someone proposes any mechanism or theory to explain the natural world that person’s assertions are held under the harsh light of scrutiny.”

“It doesn’t matter how fanatically a scientist may believe something to be true, or want to believe something is true, it is not likely ta happen.”

      I said, ‘Yeah, that’s why I trust science and mathematics.”

      Neo said, “Other scientists will examine the descriptions, and even the approximate cherished reality of the scientist touting the new belief with every conceivable test that can be executed and repeated.” “In the final analysis nature will be the final and absolute arbiter and judge.” “Great minds like Einstein, Newton, Descartes’, Stephen Hawkins, and all the others are wondrous only when they follow the hunches and intuitions as to how nature works, and then when their colleagues have weighed, measured, examined and finally proved to be right.”

      I said, “I understand what you are saying, but I don’t see the merry ride you’re warning me about.”

      Neo said, “Keep listening… now let’s look at the field of theoretical physics…”

      I interrupted Neo’s lecture because I felt he was dragging me into intellectual waters too deep for me.

      I mockingly said, “Neo I don’t know squat about theoretical physics…perhaps you need to call Harry on this matter.” “Don’t tell me you know about theoretical physics also.”

      Neo said, “I didn’t work fer Hugh’s Aerospace or the Fermi Particle Accelerator if that’s what yer asking.” “But I have done more than my share of schooling in physics.”

      I to be set back I said, “That figures….okay I’ll try not to interrupt.”

      Neo said, “Anyway there are a lot of folks in theoretical physics that now see science moving towards a definite and finite goal.” “A lot of scientists are thinking that they may come up with the “theory of everything.”

“Even Stephen Weinberg…a Nobel Laureate calls the dream of many the “Final Theory”.

      I said, “What does that mean?”

      Neo said, “This would mean that all of the fundamental forces that are recognized by physicists will have an ultimate set of mathematical equations that would tie all of these essential forces together.” “Many scientists are optimistic that all major theoretical sciences and high energy physics are on the precipice of achieving final unification.”

      Listening to Neo talking about the unification and the creation of the ultimate set of equations got my held spinning in awe and wonderment. I knew this one day event could herald a new dawn for mankind.

      I said, “Then it will be a brave new world.”

      Neo said, “Well mate, as wondrous as it all sounds their still are some road blocks to proving everything or unifying all of the sciences.” “The problem is that science like almost human activities is centered on the belief or the assumption that nature…the universe is understandable or will become understandable.”

      I said, ‘Well don’t you believe that is true?”

      Neo said, “Well before I answer that… let me give you some examples of what is true?” “We all believe in something, especially scientists and of course we know that science by its very nature is premised on a whole set of beliefs.” “Scientists love the fact that science is founded on thinking that all things can be comprehended.” “They believe the ingenuity of the human mind will facilitate more clever ways of probing with more sophisticated and subtler instruments and that through this will come to know everything.

      I said, “It sounds very reasonable and likely to me.”

      Neo said, “I do believe that scientific theories are useful and they are a means of going beyond what most people, and in some cases perhaps all people are able to observe of the physical world and in its way penetrated and open up the structure of the universe…of nature.” ”However, the theoretical parts of scientific theories, the parts that tell in what seems  to be terms for non-observational things are not in essences translatable…ah… ah….into what is best described as observational things….at least that is what I believe.” “These non-observational things cannot be translated into algorithmic boxes where we put in our observations and spit out predictions.”

      I said, “I must admit this fairly dense with information…I will need time to chew over what you have told me.” “Neo it really is interesting what you have been telling me…could I use the tape recorder I saw on the front desk in the lobby.” I will pay for the tape.”

      Neo agreed and I went to get the tape recorder and after pouring more tea I went over the highlights of our conversation and I had listen to this tape many times over the years.            

      Finally after the both of us reiterating our stances I asked him to move forward with his line of thinking where he had originally intended.

      I said, “It is my belief that the theoretical parts of any science or belief have descriptive content and they are right or wrong in the same prosaic way that the observation parts of theories in any science, -- are right or wrong” “They are right or correct if they correspond to reality.”

      I said, “It is my understanding that mathematics is the bedrock to every science and with math every thing can be proven.”

      Neo said, “Yes, you have mention yer faith in mathematics several times.” “Ironically you believe this fer two reasons…one, that yer taking on faith of what ya have read and heard, and two…by yer own admission yer understanding of mathematics is very limited.” “Yer limitation keeps ya from seeing the limitations of mathematics in general.” “The use of abstract mathematics to delve into the mysterious and unobservable realms of nature is to a big measure why things seem so mysterious.” “In fact the delving into nature by the use of abstract mathematics makes everything seem as mysterious as to be denounced by anti-realists in the scientific community.”

      Just as he said this a thought came to me…something I had read somewhere.” It filled me with excitement and I practically wanted to raise my hand like a child wanting to seem bright to his teacher.

      I said, “I read that scientists, and mathematicians cannot figure out how bumble bees fly.” “In fact I read that it is mathematically impossible for the bumble bees to fly.”

      Neo laughed, “Yer mate Harry would say that was because the bees were too dumb ta realize that they were unable ta fly.”

      We both laughed for a few minutes on this famous Harry-ism.

      Neo said, “Ya brought one of many examples that helps me ta make my point and that is not all properties of the universe are expressible through the use of mathematics…and why in bloody hell should they be?” “Instead fer properties to be so readily expressible by mathematics, -- it takes unique or special sorts of properties to fit the criteria for abstract analysis.” “There are various aspects or dimensions of the universe that we will never delve into by the way of conventional science.” “Look at the phenomena of consciousness, dreams, mystical events, and interactions with astral entities….I don’t imagine we will have mathematics that will be able to delve into some of these mysteries to prove or disprove any of this.” “Nor will these unified equations on the theory of everything tell us how proteins are formed or how DNA or DNA sequencing came about, and I dare say the they will prove to be lacking insofar as to express completely the machinations of cells.“ “It is my belief that all of our scientific theories and our mathematical systems give testimony to the incompleteness of scientific theories and perhaps this is necessary.”

      I felt both dismayed and exhilarated at the picture of what Neo was painting. I was dismayed because like most people I wanted clear cut answers…I wanted to be told how things were and what I need to do. I was exhilarated because of the open-ended potential of nature and of us that I thought Neo was outlining.

      I said, “I know that there are some limitations with mathematics, but I was certain that Mathematical proof was widely regarded as the most certain form of proof that exists.”

      Neo said, “In the early days of Greece a bloke by the name of Euclid wrote a book called Elements, and it was in this book that he had his great works of geometry with many of the proofs of geometric theorems.” “Euclid’s work was considered to consist of irrefutable and correct proofs to his cherished theorems, yet many, if not most of his theorems were found to be wrong.” “Euclid’s geometric theorems were slavishly studied, memorized and used for centuries by not just regular blokes like you and me, but by learned mathematicians who had also believed them to be correct and therefore passed them on to their students…who passed them down to other people.” “These flawed theorems kept surviving century after century until the nineteenth century when a clever free thinking bloke by the name of David Hilbert saw that they were flawed and took it upon himself to correct many of them.” “This goes ta show ya it can be hard to see what is true or false even when mathematicians use a ten line proof in geometry.”

      Now my exhilarations were dimming and dismay was starting to dominate.

      I said, ‘Why are there all of these inconsistencies and flaws?” “Does this mean that nature is inconsistent and flawed also?”

      Neo said, “Yes and no.” “Nature may seem to have inconsistencies and flaws now and again…but for the most part I would imagine that even entropy and chaos fall into an organized pattern.”

      “I would dare to say that the inconsistencies and flaws lay in the way we perceive the reality of things to be, or the evidence we think we have, and the actions we take are often flawed and inconsistent.”

      I said, “Then perhaps you can tell me why this happens so often.”

      Neo said, “The name of the scientific game is the formulation of hypotheses that cannot be disproved and in fact can be shown ta be true.” “The hypotheses that are not disproved are thought to be true until they are disproved.” “Ego and politics gets in the way of most scientists to move as far as they can as fast as they could, because for most scientists it is far more glamorous and ego gratifying fer them ta formulate a hypotheses than ta spend a lifetime of trying ta disprove existing ones that other scientists have formulated.” “This makes it unlikely that an even and balanced amount of time and energy and manpower will be spent from some bloke